Profil de abredon

Avatar
Utilisateur
Nombre de message : 45
Créé :
Dernière visite :

When is card text active?

64x64
Posté - Edité
#21
Tootzo a écrit :
abredon a écrit :
[
Great if and only if that is specifically listed in the rules, but - guess what! It's not!


They don't need to state everything that is not. Rulebook just say what is, automatically excluding the opposite if not stated otherwise.
The LEFT part of an action card is only active when you reveal action cards during the Result step of an action. The RIGHT part is active the moment you take an action card into your hand. Period.
It's clear enough in the rules because, since they don't say otherwise, that's exactly what's stated there.
The stars on the left part of an action card are only explained in the Result step of the action resolution process; the skill text is only talked about when the rulebook says you can take actions printed on skill cards in your hand and can use effects (effects, NOT stars and 7s in the left side) from skill cards in your hand in the Result step of an action and those are precisely the only moments you can use those parts of an action card.

This implicitly means you can't use either of them outside these situations. All rulebooks work this way: you do what they explicitly say and you don't do what's not written.

Example: the rulebook says you can use the resources printed on the terrain card your figure is on and all attached event cards. It doesn't need to also tell you can't use the resource printed on adjacent terrains, but following your logic, you could just do that because the rules don't explicitly say you cannot. Someone might justify this thematically especially when they're on a 0 cost 0 success move terrain saying they don't need to spend a single energy "point" to move across the terrain, so they can get whatever resource is on all reachable terrain cards, because the rulebook doesn't say you can't.
I'm pretty sure you see the absurdity of all this.
You do what they say, you don't do what they don't. Period.


So, according to your interpretation, you cannot use your character skill as it is not "text within an action" and the rulebook doesn't say you can use it.

The conditional text on botany cards is also not inside an action, so it doesn't apply as the rules don't state that it applies.

I'm sorry, but that interpretation is broken.

Again, I went over the different possible interpretations and no rules interpretation works for all situations. I am asking for official clarification, not user opinions

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté - Edité
#22
JackSpirio a écrit :
No, it does not

"Card text overrides the rules" means that if there is any conflict between card text and rules, the card text applies.

Since all card text overrides all rules (according to the rules), all card text on all cards visible is active at all times, if you state that "card text overrides the rules" is sufficient to resolve this issue then:

Forewarned is forearmed states that you can discard it during the results step to get the following effect: :icon_succes:

Since the text of the card overrides the rules (which don't even state the text is not active), you can discard forewarned is forearmed if drawn during the results step for an extra star immediately.

Card 180 starts with:
when revealed, shuffle this back into the action deck.

Since that is the first text on the card, you immediately shuffle it into the deck, and the second paragraph does not apply.


So that interpretation results in the following cards not functioning as intended:
Forewarned is Forearmed
Valiant Hearts Shall Not Fail
Card 180

There is a problem with that interpreration. It cannot be correct as written.

again, i am asking for official clarification, not user opinions.

I listed possible interpretations and what they fail at, how, and why.
Every user that tried to provide their opinion falls into one of those interpretations, and that interpretation fails for the reason i stated in my first post.

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté
#23
JackSpirio a écrit :
Which should be enough

Ok, let's analyze that:
you shuffle it back into the deck the moment it is revealed, and thus the 2nd paragraph is never in play

Bzzt! The card doesn't work right!

This interpretation also means that "forewarned is forearmed" and "valiant hearts shall not fail" can be discarded when they show up in the revealed cards for the extra stars (after all, they override the rules)

That interpretation means that all text on all cards is always active.

When is card text active?

64x64
Posté
#24
JackSpirio a écrit :
abredon a écrit :
JackSpirio a écrit :
As stated above the rules tells you what cards you can use in that step, just drawn cards are not in that list.

You just repeat the same arguments again and again, that won’t give anyone new insight.


Yes, the rules lists some effects that can be used in that step. Does that mean such a list is exclusive?

If so, then the Flying Roots don't work.

Why shouldn’t they work?
You don’t use the text, you just do what it tells you (as it is revealed during the success step)


So you also do what "forewarned is forearmed" tells you - that you can discard it to get an extra star?

If the text is not active, you cannot apply what it says - it is merely flavor text or ignored.

And you still have not pointedcto the rule that makes the text apply at all

When is card text active?

64x64
Posté
#25
JackSpirio a écrit :
As stated above the rules tells you what cards you can use in that step, just drawn cards are not in that list.

You just repeat the same arguments again and again, that won’t give anyone new insight.


Yes, the rules lists some effects that can be used in that step. Does that mean such a list is exclusive?

If so, then the Flying Roots don't work.


Unless you can point to a specific place in the rules that covers when card text is active, all you are doing is arguing "this is what it should be", not debating the rules.

I am stating that the rules do not state when card text is active, and none of the sensible interpretations work for all cards.

I am asking for either:
A clear rules citation of where such a rule on card text is listed in plain language in the rules, errata, or FAQ
Or
A new ruling in the errata or FAQ from the designers of when card text is active.

what you are giving me is:
User X (not designer) says it is obviously this way.

what I currently have is:
User X says it is obviously H (but cards A and B don't work with that interpretation)
User Y says it is obviously I (but cards B and C don't work with that interpretation)
The best I can come up with is J (but card B needs editing to work with that interpretation)

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté
#26
brisingre a écrit :
Your character card is a :icon_hand_orange: in your hand. Text on :icon_hand_orange: cards is active in your hand. I don't think the rules are ambiguous about that one.

Conditionals on Botany cards are an example of text on cards overriding (or in this case adding onto) the basic rules. The rules say you can apply :action_condition: abilities on matching :action_empty: actions, the Botany card has an ability that says you can only use this :action_condition: sometimes, and that takes priority. The conditional ability says you can't apply the brown box if you don't have the matching plant, and that takes priority over the rules saying you can. I don't think the rules are ambiguous about this either.



Rules citation please - where EXACTLY in the rules does it say that text not in an action is active at all?

I looked and could find nothing except "card text overrides the rules"

When is card text active?

64x64
Posté - Edité
#27
JackSpirio a écrit :
It you just do what the cards say, which makes it obvious when they are to be used.


There are cards that logic doesn't work with:
So you can discard "Forewarned is Forearmed" when it is drawn during the Result step of an action to get an extra star? It doesn't say "from hand" so you can discard it when it is drawn as a result card.

And the card that prompted me finding out how vague the rules are on this:
card 180
gets shuffled back into the deck and has no other effect?
Rather than the other 2 possibilities:
Adds a star and gets shuffled back into the deck.
Adds a star and does not get shuffled back into the deck.


There are cards in this game where your simplistic approach does not work, and when we go look for supporting actual rules or even designer's stated intention, we can find nothing to support any interpretation, and the vagueness causes me to
now question my former interpretation of every card.

With equal support from the rules, I could claim that you could:
Use a botany card even when the plant is not present (the qualifier text is not within the modifier box, so doesn't apply) - if you can only use card rules text when explicitly told to.
Discard a just-drawn Valiant Hearts card for 2 extra successes in the action it was drawn (the text says you may discard it for those successes) - if all card rules text is always applicable.

Since the rules say nothing about when card text is applicable, one of the above should be true, but there is no way to tell, and simple logic says neither should be true(forewarned/valiant hearts/roots/180), so we need a clarification on the edge cases.

Logic says the result card text should not be applied, but then flying roots have text that needs to be applied when drawn as results. Card
180
has text that doesn't make sense interpreted either way.

And most importantly, if someone questions why your interpretation is correct, where in the official rules/clarifications can you point?

Specific examples of actual rules/clarifications only, please. No hearsay

When is card text active?

64x64
Posté
#28
Tootzo a écrit :
No, no, no... when you reveal action cards as part of the result step of an action, you only consider the left column, where the stars / sevens are. The main portion of the action card can only be used when they are in your hand, be it an ongoing effect, an effect you activate by discarding the card or an action you may take (for, say, crafting an item).

The rules clearly say (result step) you can only use cards from your hand, items from your inventory (if activated in items step), quest items or effects from terrain card or permanent events linked to your terrain card. The text on action cards you just drew from the deck cannot be used, because they are not in your hand/inventory.

The only action cards you “activate” their text when revealed during the result step are the four cards from the Flying Roots add-on (those are not skill cards anyway and besides they specifically say what to do when you reveal them, while skill cards don’t say that)

Lastly, when you flip an exploration card, you immediately read what its text says and act accordingly.


Great if and only if that is specifically listed in the rules, but - guess what! It's not!

In fact if you read the rules, you realize that they don't actually list any time at which card text is active or not (except for the consequence area of an action, and the box area of a brown modifier)

This means one of the following:
1. no card text is active outside the action consequences and modifier boxes (no character skills, no Forewarned is Forearmed,flying roots,...) - many problems.
2. all card text is always active unless specifically excluded (you can discard Forewarned is Forearmed when you just drew if for an extra star, and a very few other issues). Problems with around 4-10 cards only.
3. The rules need an errata covering the special cases where card text should not be active.

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté
#29
Tootzo a écrit :
abredon a écrit :

Nowhere in the rules, errata, or FAQ does it state that card text is not processed during the Results step of an action. since there is no rule against it, by default it is processed.


This, sir, is just your simple and plain assumption.

Rules say you line up the stars from cards you reveal during the result step of an action and then you can use cards from your hand, items, effects from permanent events and/or quest items to increase your successes.

Rules never say you can use the text on the skill cards you have revealed in this step. That text is meant to be used when you actually have that skill. When you draw cards as the cost to take an action, they’re only there for the success chance of the action. Then, if you choose to take one in your hand, that card becomes a skill card you can use accordingly to its text.

Don’t just assume what is unwritten. Rules are meant to say what you can do and what they don’t specifically say, you cannot do. Period.



Tootzo a écrit :
abredon a écrit :

Nowhere in the rules, errata, or FAQ does it state that card text is not processed during the Results step of an action. since there is no rule against it, by default it is processed.


This, sir, is just your simple and plain assumption.

Rules say you line up the stars from cards you reveal during the result step of an action and then you can use cards from your hand, items, effects from permanent events and/or quest items to increase your successes.

Rules never say you can use the text on the skill cards you have revealed in this step. That text is meant to be used when you actually have that skill. When you draw cards as the cost to take an action, they’re only there for the success chance of the action. Then, if you choose to take one in your hand, that card becomes a skill card you can use accordingly to its text.

Don’t just assume what is unwritten. Rules are meant to say what you can do and what they don’t specifically say, you cannot do. Period.



Great, so character abilities don't exist because nothing in the rules says that area of the card does anything.
And the conditionals on botany cards aren't applicable because the only thing the rules tell us to apply is the consequences of an action and the area within a brown modifier box.

That interpretation causes more problems than it solves!

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté
#30
By "the discard pile", i assume you mean the "action deck discard pile". It is intimately associated with the action deck, and nearly all cards in it came from the action deck, and thus in that context, "shuffled back" has a clear meaning - this is a card that came from the action deck and should be shuffled back into it. Even when you buy Advanced skills into your hand, you are adding them to the deck.

when you first draw card 180, you haven't seen the face, so you don'tknow ot is intended to be part of the action deck - it is merely an adventure card with rules text. In that context, "shuffle back into the action deck" is confusing.


That also doesn't address what happens when the card is drawn from the Action Deck - do you shuffle it back then?
If so, the paragraphs are necessarily out of order, as if you shuffle it back, the 2nd paragraph isn't in play.
If not, the first paragraph needs some significant changes.

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté
#31
Unisus a écrit :
If 3 was true, any card with the text "discard this to..." would be discarded without effect as the normal effect comes after the prompt to discard the card and can not be read if you have to follow that prompt immediately

I think the first paragraph of the card was just worded a little poorly. The interpretation 1 is very powerful, but not as powerful as some people seem to think - how often is 1 card enough to do a successful action?

No, "discard this to..." cards would still work, as that is all 1 paragraph.

On this there are 2 paragraphs. So you can do the first paragraph in its entirety, and the 2nd paragraph is now no longer in play.

The first paragraph is definitely worded (and possibly placed) poorly. You can't shuffle a card back into a deck it never came from.

The real problem is that this card has multiple possible interpretations, all equally (un)supported by the rules which lack any support for card text being applicable outside of action consequences.

It is not possible to look at any interpretation and say with certainty "this is the obvious intent"

When is card text active?

64x64
Posté
#32
MetalGod a écrit :
The rules state pretty clearly when you can use cards , starting on page 11 of the rule book for action resolution , only the left side of the card is used when you draw cards for a result , you can use cards from your hand , inventory or journal during the cost step and/or the results step . card text is only active when it is in your hand/inventory or journal.

Where does the word "only" appear in the results step except in stating that the stars and 7 icons in the left strip are only taken into account in the result step?
The rules do not state that the rest of the card is not processed, just that that strip is not processed anywhere else.

If card text is only processed when in hand/inventory or journal, the Flying Roots cards don't work.

Again, the rules never provide that card text outside of an action is ever processed.
It is obvious that it needs to be processed only in some cases and not others.
Non-complete breakdown:
Needs to be processed or the game breaks:
1. Character skills text needs to be processed
2. Journal cards often have text that is processed
3. Text on some specific cards that do something when revealed in the results step of an action

Shouldn't be processed:
4. Text on some cards during the results step of an action.
5. Text on cards not currently in play.

Since there is no rule delineating the difference between 3 and 4 above, there is no way to tell what cards fall into 3 and what cards fall into 4
card 180 appears to be designed to fall into both, but the text on the card seems to indicate it falls into 4 entirely. It just doesn't work that way
.

Relinquishing an item

64x64
Posté
#33
Note: if you declare you are using a "using this does not diminish the durability" card, that counts as using the entire item, so you can apply effects from all cards in the item. (The icon needs to be appropriate to do this)

If you declare using a "does not diminish durability" card, you must use that modifier and discard that card.

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté
#34
3 different ways it was interpreted:

1 -> gives a star and goes back in the action deck. (Process text out of order)
2 -> gives a star, goes in the discard pile. (Ignore first paragraph, process 2nd paragraph - 2 different people had 2 different reasons why the 2nd paragraph was processed)
3 -> no star, goes back in the action deck. (Process text in order)


All these ways are potentially supported by the rules. The rules are very vague on this point of what text on an action card is processed during the results step.

When is card text active?

64x64
Posté - Edité
#35
Right now the rules don't state when card text is active.

There are a number of possible cases:
1 - when a card is revealed for any reason.
Problems with Forewarned is Forearmed, Valiant Hearts Shall Not Fail (allowing you to discard them for extra stars when they are drawn in the results step after counting their inherent stars)
Problem with Card 180 - shuffles into deck before giving star


2 - when a card is in any play area, not when merely revealed.
(with play area defined as hand, inventory, map, and satchel)
Problems with Flying Roots (failure to activate even though the card is supposed to)
Problem with Card 180 - failure to activate


3 - Never unless it specifically listed (e.g. by 'effect area' in card diagrams in rules).
Problems with Character skills (not in effect area), some 050 cards, Flying Roots - failure to activate.

4 - when card is in any play area or specifically mentions 'when revealed'
(with play area defined as hand, inventory, map, and satchel)
Problem with Card 180 - shuffles into deck before giving star


5 - when card is revealed unless the rulebook specifically excludes it.
The rulebook does not specifically exclude anything, so this has the same problem as 1

6 - when card is revealed unless the rulebook implies not.
This is very problematical, how can you reliably determine implication.

I think the answer should be 4 (when in a play area or the card states 'when revealed'), as that seems to cause the fewest problems.
Card
180
is the only card with problems in this case but that card has problems in all cases.

EDIT:
So after all this and reading the full text of card 180 and the Flying Roots cards, it seems the only interpretation that seems that it might accomplish what the designers intended is:
All card text is applicable when a card is in a play area or taken from the Adventure deck. (without this many cards break completely)
During the Result Step of an action, only card text starting with "when revealed during the Result step...", continuing to the end of the card, is active.


And to arrive at that interpretation took thorough going over the various permutations of interpretation and how they interacted with the actual wording of:
Card 180 (demonstrates that card text is not automatically active, as it would prevent itself from working if this was the case)
The Flying Roots (won't work without the 'continuing to the end of the card' as the text is split into separate paragraphs with only the first having the 'when revealed during...')
"Forewarned is Forearmed" and "Valiant Hearts Shall Not Fail" (affected by some of the interpretations, but not game-breaking either way)


And we still aren't 100% sure that is what is intended. It's just the only interpretation that does not cause perceived problems with one or more of the above cards.

And before Card 180 and Flying Roots almost everyone "knew" that card text did not apply during the Results step of an action. (Partially because only 2 cards had text that made any sense then and prior games made us think that you generally only discard from your hand)

The rules should have the following 2 paragraphs:
All card rules text is applicable when a card is in a play area or taken from the Adventure deck.
During the Result Step of an action, only card rules text starting with "when revealed during the Result step...", continuing to the end of the card, is active.

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté
#36
the reshuffle text is very clear about when it activates - when the card is revealed.
Is the card not revealed when the card is revealed during the Results step?


There needs to be clarification that the only text on an action card that is processed during an action iscthat text that specifically mentions that it is active during an action. Otherwise there will be confusion - "the text on flying roots are active when drawn during an action, so the text on Forewarned... must also be active"

The rules never state that card text outside actions/modifiers is ever active either. They do identify "card effect" areas, but don't state that text within those areas is active.

There are also cards with text outside those "card effect" areas (like character cards).

Either all visible card text is active at all times or there needs to be clarification.

And as for card 180, during discussion on BGG, it turned out that players were interpreting it three different ways, and each group was sure their interpretation was correct according to the rules.

The lack of an official ruling we can point to on the "card text is not processed during the results step unless specifically indicated" is the biggest problem here. Without an official ruling, players insist that there is nothing saying the text isn't active.

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté - Edité
#37
Where in the rules/FAQ/errata does it state in black and white that you don't process text on cards revealed from the action deck in the Result step?

I looked, but it is nowhere to be found.
The I searched for official rulings in these forums, but again, nowhere to be found.

Without that, since the card text overrides the rules (as stated in the rulebook), the reshuffle is in effect.

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté
#38
Unisus a écrit :
abredon a écrit :
While it seemed clear that action card text isn't processed when revealed in the Result step, Flying Roots and card 180 don't work with that simplistic interpretation.


I agree that the FR would need such an extra rule, but 180 doesn't. It's second effect is a ongoing effect that is gained when drawing the card from the adventure deck and that is triggered by revealing that card from the action deck.


But it needs a change to the rules about such ongoing effects then, (including if they are in effect when the card they are on is not visible - if so, then some Permanent effects have weird results). As currently written, there is nothing to make the 2nd paragraph active if it's text is not processed when visible, or inactive if it is not visible.

And since the text on card 180 overrides the rulebook as per the rulebook, and the rulebook does not preemptively disable text on cards revealed in the Results step, it gets shuffled back into the deck, and the 2nd paragraph is not in effect.
leading to a recurring 0 star card


If the rules are changed to preemptively disable text on cards revealed in the Results step, then the 2nd paragraph is disabled as well,
leading to a no-star card.


There needs to be clarification of what is disabled on cards revealed in the Results step and a change to the first sentence regardless
as the current text technically only shuffles it into the action deck if it was revealed from the action deck - you can'tput something back where it has never been

This rules change is needed for both Flying Roots and card 180 or for card 180 and Forewarned/Valiant Hearts depending on whether card text is not/is supposed to be processed on cards revealed in the Results step.


There is also an interesting interaction with characters that can return action cards to the deck. Does the star gained from card 180 stay if the card is returned to the deck?

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté
#39
JackSpirio a écrit :
Nowhere in the rules, errata, or FAQ does it state that card text is not processed during the Results step of an action. since there is no rule against it, by default it is processed.

This is not true.
The rules state what to do in the result step, so follow this.


Really? What about for flying roots?
The rules say nothing about text on action cards either way. They DO state: "Important: card text overrides this rulebook"

While it seemed clear that action card text isn't processed when revealed in the Result step, Flying Roots and card 180 don't work with that simplistic interpretation.

Card 180 (A0599)

64x64
Posté
#40
Unisus a écrit :
Page 12: under "3. Result" it clearly states that only effects from a variety of cards may be applied, cards revealed during the result step are not among those cards. Else there isn't also a rule against using effects you wrote on a paper, so why not just make a note with "you succeed this action and use it at any test, as there is no rule against it?

where there does it say you don't apply any text on revealed cards?
I am happy for the ruling to go either way, but NOT happy for it to be ambiguous.
There needs to be a clarification, and it needs to be in an official place - a ruling in the forum that can't be found by a search is useless.

Also, WHERE does it say you read the complete text on anything before resolving it. This is another thing that seems to be an assumed rule, just like having rule text outside the normal areas of Events, items, Journal cards, and Skill cards.
Technically since there is no Effect area on a Green card back, you could argue that only flavor text should be there. We both know there are places where there is such rule text, but there is nothing other than "card text overrides the rulebook" to justify using it, and if we apply that argument, then we are back to the text on this cards overrides the rules on handling cards in the Result step of an action.