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Lowering action cost below zero? (Generally / team work modifying mechanism?)

Forums/ The 7th Continent/ Rules and Operating Points7 posts
64x64
Posted
#1
Two questions in one:
1. Is it generally allowed to lower the card cost of an action below zero? If that is the case, is then a negative card cost number just treated as zero or is it handled in some other way?
2. Is it specifically allowed to use the group action cost/success modifying mechanism (for non-:icon_locked: actions) even when that would lower the action card cost below zero?

Specific context:
There is at least one possible "exploit" of a 0:card_blue:/0:icon_succes: card that (if it is possible) uses the group action mechanism to make that -1:card_blue:/1:icon_succes: in order to fail something that isn't supposed to be able to fail.

My personal ruling is that the group action mechanism can not be used to change cost/success when cost would be lowered below zero, but it is not really clearly stated in the rules.

Full spoiler is in this post (in a very spoilery discussion!): https://the7thcontinent.seriouspoulp.com/en/forum/topic/648/fully-leveled-up-exploit-lovecraft/page/1/273296/#273296
64x64
Posted
#2
I would love to hear your opinions on this... :)
64x64
Posted - Edited
#3
Ad 1) @Rulebook P. 11 lower right corner:
Note: the cost of an action may be zero, but never less than zero. In cases where the cost is lowered below zero, consider it to be zero.


Ad 2) Seems to be allowed. Can't find any rules that would prohibit this. See next post for what I have found in the rulebook. Yet, why would you want to fail something on purpose?
:icon_succes_7:2nd GEN BACKER:icon_succes_7:
:icon_journal:15 HOURS :resource_fire:5 SESSIONS
:flag_curse_sm: :icon_succes:2 :icon_curse:0
64x64
Posted - Edited
#4
Ad 2) On consequences of actions taken: Rulebook P. 12:
a failure – they [the involved players] apply the effects shown in the black section.

If there is no such section, failing this action has no consequence.

Unless stated otherwise (e.g. “each involved character…”), the consequence of an action only applies to the active player.


This seems to make a "fail on purpose" scenario pointless if there are no negative consequences in a black field and a given card since there simply won't be any consequences.

What exactly does the card you refer to state as it's consequences?
:icon_succes_7:2nd GEN BACKER:icon_succes_7:
:icon_journal:15 HOURS :resource_fire:5 SESSIONS
:flag_curse_sm: :icon_succes:2 :icon_curse:0
64x64
Posted
#5
SPELEOGHOST wrote:
Yet, why would you want to fail something on purpose?

Surprisingly (I don't remember which one I encountered), you would want to fail some rare actions.


krbj wrote:
2. Is it specifically allowed to use the group action cost/success modifying mechanism (for non-:icon_locked: actions) even when that would lower the action card cost below zero?

Specific context:
There is at least one possible "exploit" of a 0:card_blue:/0:icon_succes: card that (if it is possible) uses the group action mechanism to make that -1:card_blue:/1:icon_succes: in order to fail something that isn't supposed to be able to fail.

My personal ruling is that the group action mechanism can not be used to change cost/success when cost would be lowered below zero, but it is not really clearly stated in the rules.

The rule (p.11, as quote above) tells you to consider a negative number as zero, it does not forbid you to lower a :card_blue:O action.
Therefore you can deduce from the rule that, in your specific case, you can lower your :card_blue:0/:icon_succes:0 action to fail it on purpose.
64x64
Posted - Edited
#6
The rules allow for negative to zero modifications. But I'd need more info on the specific card text to complete the picture. Because if there are no "BLACK" consequences and you fail the rules state that there simply are NO consequences.
:icon_succes_7:2nd GEN BACKER:icon_succes_7:
:icon_journal:15 HOURS :resource_fire:5 SESSIONS
:flag_curse_sm: :icon_succes:2 :icon_curse:0
64x64
Posted
#7
SPELEOGHOST wrote:
Ad 1) @Rulebook P. 11 lower right corner:
Note: the cost of an action may be zero, but never less than zero. In cases where the cost is lowered below zero, consider it to be zero.

Thanks for pointing this out, I just couldn't find it, I should have learnt by now how often the crucial "missing" information is found in the "boxes".

SPELEOGHOST wrote:
Yet, why would you want to fail something on purpose?

I must assume you have not played much yet? As Freyr says, there are several situations were it might be preferable to fail an action. The black section is not always necessarily the worse outcome. Most of these situation would be minor spoilers, but still certainly spoilers. This is not a problem with the game, but rather intentionally set up this way by the creators. You will see when you get there. :)

SPELEOGHOST wrote:
Ad 2) On consequences of actions taken: Rulebook P. 12:
a failure – they [the involved players] apply the effects shown in the black section.
If there is no such section, failing this action has no consequence.
Unless stated otherwise (e.g. “each involved character…”), the consequence of an action only applies to the active player.

This seems to make a "fail on purpose" scenario pointless if there are no negative consequences in a black field and a given card since there simply won't be any consequences.
What exactly does the card you refer to state as it's consequences?

This I know already, and it is not really relevant to the question. The spoilery stuff is all in post linked in my original post.

But anyway, here is the full spoiler on this "exploit" combination:
It involves
Ferdinand's Gourmet skill card and another card.
The other card is
D1183 (adventure card 608) from the Swamp of Madness expansion
.
The texts of both cards are:
Gourmet
The following effect applies as long as you have this in your hand:
:action_condition::action_eat: Randomly take 1 card from the Discard Pile and shuffle it back into the Action Deck.

Potion
:action_eat::card_blue:0+:icon_succes:0 [white section] Discard all cards with the keyword elixir you have in hand. Take a :card_pick:648 card. Banish this.

There is no black section on the Potion card!


I think it might be a bit difficult to discuss these game mechanics unless you have some experience with them. But, trying to be non-spoilery, what you see from the "Big spoiler" information above is that just trying to perform this special action gives you a benefit and since the action can be performed over and over as long as you don't succeed, with only a negligible negative consequence, it is strongly exploitable.
Forums/ The 7th Continent/ Rules and Operating Points7 posts
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